Tuesday, March 3, 2009

A Discussion on TNR Per A Friend's Request

A person whom I respect has asked that I start a civil discussion on this blog concerning TNR. Readers of this blog know my stance on Trap, Neuter, and Abandon. But I am willing to discuss this with a person whom I have found to be open minded.

I have promised that she will not be attacked on this blog and it will be informational. Since I control the comments, any comment sent in the spirit of attack will not be posted. I invite my readers to share first hand experiences, studies, and any info that can only further our understanding of a very emotional subject.

Let me begin by saying that my experiences with TNR are negative to the point I will say I would rather see them dead. However, I prefer to see them treated differently, such as being brought in from the cold. I support Trap, Neuter, and Retain. In almost every case of my dealing with a "feral" cat, it has turned out to be just a domestic gone wild, so to speak. I don't feel that there are enough truly feral cats out there to support TNR. And it bothers me to leave them out there when they just need enough to make them into loving house cats again. This is my biggest gripe about Trap, Neuter, and Release.

My friend has ask the impact on birds as a beginning of discussion. My experience has been that I had to stop feeding birds because of the cats in the neighborhood, either owned or whatever, were using my feed stations to kill the birds I invited in. I had an organic backyard for over 10 years and birds were part of the eco system. When I lost the birds, my backyard went to hell. It is not right that I lose my birds, my eco system, all for the love of leaving cats outside. I noticed the decline in the birds. I saw the cats taking the young, therefore no new birds to replace the ones taken. It broke my heart. I saw the difference it made in my yard, my fruit trees, my lawn. I removed all the bird feeders, it didn't help. I had fruit trees and the cats would sit and wait for the birds.

So my first hand experience says it is not fair to me to have cats outside. It probably is the same for many people who try to garden organically, because birds are a big part of doing that. So let the discussion begin.

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

I have found that debating with the TNR people is about the same as debating with pit bull breeders.

They say things that just aren't true, avoid or cover up the problems, and it gets weird.

This isn't an attack. It's just the way it is.

Cats aren't wild animals and never will be.

I have seen so much suffering in the name of TNR it is depressing.

Anonymous said...

I have found that debating with the TNR people is about the same as debating with pit bull breeders.

They say things that just aren't true, avoid or cover up the problems, and it gets weird.

This isn't an attack. It's just the way it is.

Cats aren't wild animals and never will be.

I have seen so much suffering in the name of TNR it is depressing.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because the released or abandoned cats are just getting annihilated between the aggressive dogs, coyotes, gun toters, and disease.

Their deaths won't be acknowledged.

Anonymous said...

As for birds, this is denial number one for TNR.

Since well-fed, pet cats that go outside kill birds just for sport, what do abandoned cats scrounging for a meal do?

They kill even more.

Honesty Helps said...

I believe I said "discussion" not "debate". The reason my friend wants this discussion is to gather info to make the right decision. She has recently helped on some TNR but I get the impression she is not exactly thrilled about it. And she is right, it is hard to get info in a constructive manner on this issue. So we aren't debating here, we are trying to garner info. I like learning something new and the only way to do that is discussion. And I too have seen too much suffering in the name of TNR and it is depressing. But it ain't going away if we turn our heads from it. And it is a big issue with no kill.

Anonymous said...

Sorry about the misunderstanding about discussion.

I too once supported TNR.

Then I saw the error of my ways, and the denial with the leaders of that particular religion.

Suffering is suffering, even if it in the name of humane treatment.

And absolutely abandoned cats do damage to wildlife populations, not only birds but small animals.

Honesty Helps said...

I spent considerable time observing "outside" cats and colonies of "feral". I saw first hand how they killed the birds I was inviting into my yard. I watched one cat bring up 7 dead birds and a lizard I had living in my garage. I had that lizard for years and he played a role in my ecosystem too. I had even named him.

Well fed cats are probably the worse because they are killing for the fun of it. Cats in the urban/suburan areas can find food without killing yet they still kill. I experienced first hand what cats can do to destroy ecosystems. I even found a cat eyeballing my guinea pigs when they were outside on a nice day. Is it right I have to tolerate this?

Cowgirl said...

TNR. To me, it's a necessary stop-gap until a better solution evolves like birth control, day after pills and or non-evasive sterilization. I recall Great Britain was actively working on a solution. Brazil has birth control in the form of a periodic shot. There really isn't much to work with, besides sterilization in the near future.

I love cats and birds but not always so for our own species. Our whole planet has changed since industrialization began in the 1800's. From what I watch on PBS, Research Channel, Free Speech TV, UCTV and others, our global climate is changing. World climate scientists agree. Deforestation, human population growth and loss of habitat, migratory paths, breeding areas air/land/ocean pollution and pesticides have a profound effect on birds as well as their food sources. There are enough birds killed by flying into windows of buildings that many commercial buildings and high rises modify them so they don't see their reflection in the glass.

This is from eHow: How to Prevent Birds From Flying Into Windows
By Karen Bridgers, eHow Member
Rate: (25 Ratings)
It's estimated that more than 90 million birds are killed each year as a result of hitting windows. Stopping the collisions is a matter of changing the birds' perception of what they see in the windows.

I can't figure out why feral cats, colonies or the people that maintain them for their lifetime, are targeted.

Cats do kill birds and raid nests. I'm sure that too many young cats in a neighborhood can do some serious damage. I agree that cats should be removed when they clash with birds. The problem is there is no life line for them once removed. Most zoning laws don't allow residents in R1, R2, R3 to keep more than some determined number of animals on the property. Must go feed now. Will sign back in tomorrow after having a chance to read other comments.

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, your statement of TNR being a "necessary stop gap" needs more explanation. It is not the only alternative, there are others. Others that don't leave the cats outside where they don't belong.

Did you read my post and comments? You are asking why feral cats and colonies are targeted like they are. It's because they have become a nuisance and a health hazard. Recently a colony in LA was in the news because the city wanted it to go away. THIS IS A COLONY THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOR 45 YEARS. You stated that you take care of them for a lifetime, whose lifetime, yours or theirs? This colony was close to a day care center and the kids were getting sick because the cats left feces, etc. in their play ground. Some kids had hospital visits because they are allergic to cats. This is why feral cats and colonies are targeted.

You feel the way you do, not excepting of other methods, because you feel that these cats have a right to live. Yes, they do - INSIDE. They were domesticated to spend their lives with us. They are not wild animals.

Think about this, if mama cat never learned to hunt to survive from her parents, then how can she teach her kittens to survive by hunting? Hunting is learned, not an instinct. So these kittens don't stand a chance without human intervention. That makes them domesticated, not wild.

And the 45 year old colony in LA shows that it never ends, they just keep coming. They come because you are providing a food source. Cats aren't sitting there all day defending their source against other cats, that is a lie of TNR. You attract owned cats as well, putting them at risk crossing streets, dogs etc. by attracting them with your feed station.

Don't you feel that the baby birds deserve a chance to live or is it only limited to the cats?

Honesty Helps said...

By the way, Cowgirl, just to clear the air here, I do think that TNR the old way, can work in certain areas. I was raised in the country and everyone had "barn" cats. These cats lived a fairly decent life but they had a safe environment to live in for the most part. However, in areas like LA and other cities, it is not that good of an idea. They are exposed to many more threats than living in a barn. So TNR can be relative to where you live actually. And I think that is a real issue with TNR, where it will actually help the cats to live a good life as opposed to a miserable one.

Anonymous said...

A necessary stop gap that means death to wildlife and suffering for the cats?

Even with caretakers the cats still suffer, and caretakers too often get sick, die, move, and then the cats are really stuck.

But No Kill is advocating tossing cats outdoors with no caretaker now.

It's reached the point of insanity, advocating horrible animal abuse just to keep the euthanasia numbers artificially low.

This is what I meant earlier when I wrote about denial

The attitude of "oh, all these other things are hurting birds, so its ok if cats do it"

Honesty Helps said...

Anon, it is a mentality of it is okay if the cats do it, but it really isn't. Cats are not natural to the environment, in other words, the wildlife has not adapted to cats and have no instinctive defenses for cats. That's not fair is it?

And yes, now NKE is saying to go against what TNR has been stressing all along, take them back to the same place. They know where the food source is, where to hide, where to get water, and now to just turn them loose in a strange place, that just seems a little to much cruelty to me.

And when shelters stop taking the "feral" cats this is what happens. Many apartment owners, landlords trap cats abandoned by the renters. They don't want the cats so they turn to the shelters. Now if the shelter refuses them, then either the cats are taken to a hostile desert environment, wherever, and turned loose or drown in the nearest body of water. Poison is also a weapon of choice when no one will take the cats.

Boks in LA turned cats away one year and the next year, the impounds went sky high, the refused cats reproduced.

And I know many, many "caregivers" who gave up or died or went into the hospital. This is another problem of the Trap, Neuter and Release program.

Honesty Helps said...

Just came across this other aspect of "feral" cats. On HGTV this morning there was a woman with a problem of "feral" cats coming into her house. The vermin company she called was interviewed. He said that there is a very common problem of cats entering the crawl space of a house, having kittens, using the bathroom, etc. AND he said that many people who have to do work under homes have been attacked by "feral" cats (I would say probably owned as well) because they cornered them when they came into the space.

I did help an elderly woman a few years ago with this problem. She had a cat and the "feral" cats torn her screens off the windows to get into the food she had for her cat. She was attacked and she was on a walker. She did have a hospital visit, developed an infection and had a difficult time overcoming all of this. This one involved animal control as well.

So this is another aspect of leaving cats outside. In these instances, people are actually put in harm's way. Cats bite and attack too. And cats usually get away afterwards. Since cats aren't typically licensed, it is doubtful they are vaccinated. So how many people have to undergo rabies treatments every year because of cat bites? And keep in mind that "feral" cats are usually only vaccinated once when they are trapped and altered, if then.

Anonymous said...

Just read something that makes me ask this question. The ASPCA is trying to define what "feral" is. I think that is a good question to ask this post.

That is my problem as well, what is "feral" because TNR is operating under the guise of this word. I don't think there are many truly feral cats in populated areas. I think this is a deceit term used to delay the guilt of those "caregivers" that gives them the excuse to take the easy way out and leave the cats outside.

Anonymous said...

TNR also gives the public the idea that they can just abandon their unwanted cats or litters outside, and a TNR person will magically clean up after them.

Why spay your cat if you can just put the kittens out, and other people will supposedly care for them?

Many caretakers have had trouble with "new abandonments" at their colony.

Honesty Helps said...

That has been an observation of mine also. I have gone to take dogs from people, asked about their cats, and they responded that they will turn them out because the "crazy cat people" will take care of them. I have heard this too many times. I always take the cats too but many people think you won't take the cats. They usually have tried to call "rescues" only to be told they are full.

So, yes, indeed, you are right. The public thinks that someone else will be responsible and TNR plays right into that.

Cowgirl said...

Did you know that African Wildcats were domesticated 10,000 years ago and that domestic cats can still breed and reproduce with their wild descendents.

Cats also eat, yes, eat their young when the colony can no longer sustain itself any longer and the food source dries up. One of the ladies we trapped for said one of the females was witnessed eating her babies and she doesn't like the cat because of that. There's a documentary about a study on rat populations leading to a 48 year bamboo production spike and afterwards.

I help the person in charge of Tehachapi's feral cat program. We and others trapped 41 cats 2 weeks ago. They were taken by horse trailer to a free clinic. They were fixed, ear clipped, vaccinations & rabies, defleaed, dewormed, ticks removed, mites treated and exam (thanks to Best Friends & PetSmart Charities). There were 8 pregnant cats and 2 in heat. The cats were released back to the trailer park where a woman will continue to feed and care for them. It quieted down the neighbors who don't enjoy cats. So what is exactly wrong with this approach?

Is there a news article or other official reference to the cats near the school?

My husband read recently that ferals become healthier after sterilization because they're not always getting pregnant and run down.

Instead of removing cats, residents should be encouraged to adopt one. It's becoming more mainstream for faith based congregations to include stewardship of earth's natural resources. Right now, us homo sapiens are convinced that animals are dirty, disease riddled, dangerous to kids and so on. What are all of the diseases people are getting from loose cats anyway?

We're really buggy ourselves. We have bacteria throughout our own bodies: skin, mouth, intestines for example. Young adults have as much as a 1 in 8 chance of having an STD these days. Now that's scary.

There are all sorts of perils for birds including cats, game hunters and especially the lucrative, thriving pet and exotic animal trade. In fact, when I was growing up we had a Myna Bird (talking bird, looks like a crow/orange beak and legs), a pair of Java Temple birds and parakeets. The first 2 are no longer imported.

Anyway, it's feeding time again. Honest Helps: I really feel attacking TNR isn't where the problem lies and should be placed on the pet trade, pet food industry and animal control themselves for failing to provide leadership and set an example for the public.

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, here is the link on the LA cats I mentioned:
http://file.lacounty.gov/lac/WildCats4th%20102308.pdf

And yes I am aware of the wild cats of Africa and did you know that dogs can mate with wolves and coyotes and have puppies? Yet, we don't call dogs wild because they do.

I also know the area where you are trapping and it is considerably different from LA, it is rural. As I stated before, it is all relative to where you live as to whether TNR will work. You asked what is wrong with this approach, give this a few weeks or months and you will know the answer. Other cats will move in, the trailer park residents will leave their cats in your care, etc, etc.

And yes, anytime a cat is altered and can't have babies, of course it makes them healthier. That means they will live long lives in a colony if the colony is in the wilds of Montana or in Tehachapi.

Have you heard of ringworm? That's only one disease you can get from cats. And with the fleas they bring into your yard because they are mobile, unlike a dog that is stopped by fences, you know the diseases carried by fleas. In CA we rarely have cases of canine rabies yet every year we have feline rabies.

And your comment that I am attacking TNR is wrong. I am attacking something that I feel is the ultimate cruelty to cats. I don't see it as good stewardship to leave cats outside and call them feral when they aren't. There are other ways, TNR is the lazy man's way. I am for bringing them in from the cold and getting them ready for a new home. I'm attacking the cruelty of TNR when it is done in areas where cats are in the most danger.

And when you leave food for cats do you realize that it attracts wildlife as well? You know the consequences of feeding wildlife I hope.

Trap Neuter and Release is not the way to go if you truly care about these cats living their lives. I believe in quality of life myself, not quantity.

Honesty Helps said...

Gret the Vet, your comment is on Gimme a Break and I think you wanted to put it here. Send me another for this posting and I will put it up. Your opinion is valuable to me.

Honesty Helps said...

Also, Cowgirl, I forgot to mention that all animals eat their young under certain conditions. Stress will actually bring this about. But the primary reason is that a puppy or kitten is either too sick to live or is dead and the mama will eat it is because the mama knows that the scent of a dying animal or a dead animal will bring predators. This is nature's way to avoid this. I've seen loving pets in homes do the same thing. It is a protective instinct.

And you mention setting an example. What does TNR say to the irresponsible public, throw your cat away and I will take care of it. Does this set the right example for folks? We need laws, cats need to licensed, and we need enforcement of ownership of cats. As long as the public thinks they have a way out, TNR, then they will take it.

Honesty Helps said...

Excuse me, my mistake, the Rancho colony has been maintained since 1945, not for 45 years as I stated but rather 64 years, even worst.

Here's a link stating this:
http://losangeles.kijiji.com/c-Pets-Cats-kittens-RANCHO-CAT-COLONY-TO-BE-DESTROYED-PLEASE-HELP-Downey-W0QQAdIdZ95231037

Anonymous said...

Just came across this and thought that is answers Cowgirl's question.


Recently in Bloomsburg a man pleaded guilty to poisoning as many as seven of his neighbor’s cats with antifreeze.

In that case, Franklin Snyder, 27, says he got sick of the cats tearing up his property and garbage bags. He told a Columbia County judge on Tuesday that police and humane officers didn’t help him, so he took matters into his own hands.

He says the neighbor has more than 40 cats and that he considers them to be “just rodents.”

He faces up to five years in prison for animal cruelty.

Cowgirl said...

Anonymous. Some, but not all tame cats kill birds but only a small percentage of them from what I can recall from my own cats. Younger cats in a stable situation have lots of time to sun and hunt. Ferals living behind restaurants or grocery stores fare well too, because there's a ready food source. When the food source is gone they look for other sources of food and water. The ones that aren't fed at all are starving. These are the ones that are dehydrated, upper respiratories or worse. These cats cannot hunt successfully. They also have low resistance to diseases from other cats or from the mother, contracted at birth. Well managed colonies where the ferals are fed daily is actually a solid approach. Pluses are that they will stay close to the food source and not spread contagious or fatal illnesses like feline leukemia.

HonestyHelps-regarding the LA folks with kids getting ill from cats. This is very suspicious. I'm not a doctor. However, cat allergies occur from cat dander and if there's a lot of hair, let's say, in a house a suseptible person will have symptoms, for sure. Outdoor? I'm not so sure about that. Also, histerical mothers have tunnel vision sometimes. It's surprising how many people can be misleading about what occured.

Also, Dr. Bosma is a Vet in Lancaster, CA. In a conversation with him, it was his opinion that colonies where everyone is fixed and their environment is stable the colony resists interlopers.

Must run for now. We're driving to LA tonight with a minimum of 34 ferals for sterilization tomorrow. I'll try to get a report sited by Kern AC that the number of births dramatically go down based on volume of cats that can no longer breed.

Anonymous said...

Cowgirl, I am sorry but you are getting fed a line by the Alley Cat Allies & Winograd ites.

They don't put the animals first. They put their agenda and donation-gathering first.

They come up with specious statistics and pseudo-science to cover the gaping holes in their agendas. They don't want to admit the failure of their "no euthanasia" plan, so they invent ways to excuse dumping animals so they can keep their deaths off the records.

Spaying a cat doesn't keep it "healthier" if the cat is living outdoors, exposed to disease, exposed to coyotes, exposed to aggressive dogs, exposed to people who hate cats, exposed to hunters, exposed to psychotic children and teenagers, exposed to the trappers, exposed to traffic, exposed to bad storms and weather, exposed to the million things that kill these cats in bad ways.

And "The cats were released back to the trailer park where a woman will continue to feed and care for them"

Well, those "ladies in trailer parks" usually do it for a while, then stop. The work is overwhelming for them, personal issues come up, they get sick, they die, they move and then the last of the cats die in terrible ways.

Best Friends, Winograd, and Alley Cat Allies are selling you a fairy land that does not exist. These cats are dying in bad ways, and just because you can't see it happening doesn't make it any less real.

These groups do, however, want you to send them money and promote them for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with animals.

People make a living from pushing these agendas, and they get their lowly foot soldiers to glorify them and advertise them.

Anonymous said...

"I really feel attacking TNR isn't where the problem lies and should be placed on the pet trade, pet food industry and animal control themselves for failing to provide leadership and set an example for the public."

And when people talk about puppy mills, the breeders all chorus "oh, no one should be blaming breeders, it's other people's faults"

Now TNR seems to be pulling the same maneovre

(and as for where the pet food industry lies in this? The pet food industry should be blamed for abandoning cats?)

Honesty Helps said...

Regarding LA cats, it is true, it has been investigated, children have acquired problems from the cats, it has been verified. There are many more links about this other than the ones I posted. Why is it so hard to believe? I have friends who are deathly allergic to cats. Our mutual friends with cats aren't welcome because of their cat hairs on clothes. I've taken friends to the hospital because of their cat allergies.

And the reference to feline aids and leukemia, I don't think I would appreciate as a cat owner having sick cats spreading the disease thru feed stations. Your feed stations don't just attract abandoned cats, they attract any cats. And this disease is spread through salvia. What happens when the FiV cats start showing symptoms and become sick? Do they suffer until they become too weak to get away and then you can catch them to take them to be euthanized? I'm asking because I have too much experience not to ask these questions.

And I agree with the statement concerning the trailor park release. Is that fair to everyone? And many retired people lived in trailor parks as well as low income, the very people who can ill afford to feed cats or provide medical services. They die too and then who takes up the slack?

Could you explain why animal control is responsible for the cats? I'm not sure I see that one. Animal control doesn't make this problem, irresponsible owners do. So the solution lies with doing something about irresponsible owners.

And your vet is living in a dream world. Cats do not sit and guard their feed stations in any situation. New ones come in all the time, people dump their cats there. In fact, the unaltered new cats will run off the old cats just the reverse of what you have been told. Have you taken the time to sit night after night, day after day, observing a "feral" colony?

Anonymous said...

Cowgirl, there are vets that support dog fighters and puppy mills.

There are vets losing their licenses for animal cruelty.

Question authority!

Just because someone is a vet does not mean necessarily that they are ethical, right, or sane.

Veterinary medicine has a wide variation of expertise and ethics just like any other proifession.

Anonymous said...

"Also, Dr. Bosma is a Vet in Lancaster, CA. In a conversation with him, it was his opinion that colonies where everyone is fixed and their environment is stable the colony resists interlopers"

Well, then he should turn in his license.

What he thinks doesn 't make a bit of difference.

IT HAPPENS!

Been there, done that, interlopers come in all the time

"managed colonies where the ferals are fed daily is actually a solid approach"

Pet cats that are well fed KILL LOTS OF WILDLIFE. Even if you feed the ferals, they are still killing lots of wildlife.

And Winograd says cats should thrown outside with no caretakers and no food. Since Alley Cat Allies appears with him, they must be saying the same thing.

It helps to avoid reality when it is just ignored.

Anonymous said...

Cowgirl, you've got a dog breeder lobbier on the Kern County Animal Control advisory board opposing laws like mandatory spay neuter and breeder licensing because the breeders don't like those laws because and don't want to lose any income (lots of puppy mills in Kern County)

That breeder lobbier is pushing Nathan Winograd, and pushing things like abandoning cats outdoors to pretend that no kill works.

They are trying to artificially jack down euthanasia numbers in hopes that no laws get passed, so the breeders and mills can keep raking the old bucks in, unregulated.

They support Winograd and No Kill because Winograd and No Kill opposes those laws too for the breeders.

You are helping Kern County breeders keep on protecting the mills and hoarders from laws.

You are helping them maintain the delusion that everything can be made ok without laws.

Anonymous said...

Kern County animal control was also throwing dogs and puppies on some open bed trucks with some quasi hoarder (unaltered) to ship them to a pet store to sell

Do you understand that there is a shell game of make the animals diappear and die elsewhere so ac can look better? And pretend that no kill works?

Honesty Helps said...

Speaking of vets, Cowgirl, I know a vet that believes feral cats should be euthanized. He says that these cats spend their lives being frightened and don't get a minute's rest. He feels this is cruel. So which vet is right? They both have credentials. And this vet I know does nothing but spay/neuter all day, he is that much of a believer in altering solves the problem. And he does feral cats but he does not believe in TNR. He stated to me that he feels TNR is a cruelty that needs to be taken to court.

Cowgirl said...

Honesty. First, there are 31 cats today that will not be participating in any more reproduction. Two jezabells from just one place were pregnant.

Why do I consider TNR a stop gap? Really, what is there in place besides this? Anyway, the only thing that works to reduce the cat population is to trap and sterilize them. The stop gap enters at this point. It is fact that the number of births go way down by this method. It's the reason I spend my personal time trapping, transporting and working with the people who will continue to care for them. I don't think they're better off dead, however. Catteries and sanctuaries are ideal solutions for safely keeping cats on a property. Zoning/animal related ordinances that are common around the US, typically prohibit more than 3-5 animals on R1/2/3property. It's very tidy for the government sector to fit every households and businesses into neat buckets. However, they are focused exclusively on perceived human safety and nuisance issues, at a very high price for dogs and cats.

Bad pet owners are not born, they learn from society. Who? Rap groups, comedians, parents, peers, TV, movies, Animal Control, breeders, AKC, veterinary medical research and animal research for humans. This is precisely where most of the problems lie. Each play roles in molding opinions on the value of animals. The majority of people are under the impression that a homeless dog/cat is probably rabid and sick, to never get an animal from a shelter because the animal must have done something wrong to be sent to a shelter in the first place.

And when people do get a pet from a shelter, there's no qualifying or house check to assure the animal will be properly care for: diet, excercise, obedience training, behavior problem resolution or socialization. To me, all are equally important. Then they complain about irresponsible pet ownership. Hmm. Animal need protection, not hidden from view. Has anyone noticed there are no animals around, domestic or wild? It's because they are no longer here any longer. I saw my first wild turkeys on a road in a remote town. In fact, I wouldn't have any birds here if it weren't for the water source and food scraps. Here I am in a rural area no sightings of migrating bird I call earth my garden of eden and become protective about it.

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, you have redeemed yourself in my eyes. We do disagree on somethings but it appears from your last comment, we agree on so much more.

You made a statement that the government's perceived safety for humans. Yes, that is correct, Animal Control was established for the safety for humans, not the animals. The Humane Community is the one for the animals. We always need to keep the two separate. Why? Because there is a great safety factor for humans from animals and it needs to be addressed. Rabies is still around, it has not been wiped out with vaccines yet. I'm from an area of the country originally where rabies is a fact of life and we were taught as children about rabies. In this area, they would come quicker for a cat than a dog, because we considered a cat more dangerous about carrying rabies than a dog. Then I moved to CA and animal control won't even come out for a stray cat, freaked me out.

Trap Neuter and Release is not a stop gap except for you. It is not something for the cats. I have to ask if you would want this kind of life for your own cat? You can bring them in from the cold, you can if you want to badly enough. I have friends who have chosen to spend the money to build cat enclosures, get a variance from the government, and it works for them and the cats. They are adopting out "feral" cats with success. They are the first ones to join the Trap Neuter and Retain movement which is much more humane for the cats. So, you see, Cowgirl, there are other ways but you don't want to do them. They take much more to do and you don't want to do them. You are insisting there is only one way and there isn't.

And I have preached for years that we need to increase the value of animals. At one time, people had to rely on animals to survive not so now. So we have shelters doing two fer one sales or even giving them away for free. Does this increase the value? What do humans normally do when they get "free" stuff, they don't respect it, do they? Also our attitude on sales is a decreased value. So our shelters because of the "No Kill" movement are pushing them out the door to avoid be perscuted by this movement. This adds to diminished value for animals and adds to what people think of shelter animals. If it were harder to adopt from shelters, then people might appreciate the animal more. We need to make it harder to own a pet, not easier. Sure, it gets them out of the shelter, but what do they do into?

As for Eden, there is one and I am living there. I see wild geese every day migrating. When you go to the grocery store, almost every car has a dog or two in it. And they all have license tags and collars. It was a shock at first, moving from LA into this different world. I have only seen about 5 "stray" cats in over a year. Only three "stray" dogs too and people were trying to catch them. As I first stated, depends on where you are as to what can be used successfully. TN&Release might work in the wilds of Montana but not in downtown LA. And depending on where you are, depends on how much cruelty you inflict on cats by doing TN&Release.

It makes more sense to work for altering cats of irresponsible owners than making a place for their cats in a colony. The point we are trying to make here is that TN&Release only makes the problem worse. It gives these irresponsible people a way out and they take it. TN&Release is making the situation even bigger than it needs to be. Elected officials love it because it keeps them from having to deal with the problem. Trap Neuter and Release is it's own worse enemy and is proving to be an enemy to cats. Don't leave them outside, bring them in where they are supposed to be. Does it make you any better by leaving cats outside to be eaten by coyotes, hit by cats, torn apart by dogs, tortured by punks? No it doesn't, it makes you part of the cruelty.

Cowgirl said...

I'm watching Animal planet's funniest animal home videos. Some of the clips that everyone is laughing at are often being stress, falling in water or falling off a TV while asleep. The best is seeing dogs being swung around by something in their mouths. This is a classic example irresponsible media entertainment. Millions of people watch this and it plants another seed that this an acceptable behavior on the part of a pet owner. Tug of wars of any kind are usually discouraged because of the possibility of agression problems. Things like this are everyday messages fed to the masses. Medical research no longer needs to experiment on animals in many cases. Yet it still exists. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows they feel pain similar to us. People have been desensitized to the horror of animal research. My first real career related job was in malaria research at Illinois Institutes of Technology, Research Institute. (I know exactly why ALF attempts to free them from those facilities.)

Religions FAIL to include stewardship and respect for earth's ecosystem as part of their sermons. My mother in law said people don't want to believe we have evolved from monkeys.

You know all the burning and conversion to farming/housing amounts to self extermination. The rainforests that hold the key to our existence. We synthesize drugs but the real stuff grows out of the ground in South America. When it's gone, it's gone for good. Yet no one seems concerned enough to stop it. I hope I'm already done when world famine hits because of greed and arrogance.

Must run. Placed one of my chow mixes yesterday. Blondie was so ready to be loved as an only dog...and am running way behind.

Honesty Helps said...

You made a good point about tug of war. Not a good thing to do between human and dog. Dog to dog is great. And the show you mentioned does show many irresponsible videos with animals, some bordering if not, cruelty. Just like with "No Kill", these things contribute to the myths about animals that are not in their best interest.

Cowgirl said...

I want to respond to some of the remarks:
Best Friends, Winograd, and Alley Cat Allies are selling you a fairy land that does not exist. These cats are dying in bad ways, and just because you can't see it happening doesn't make it any less real.

TNR also gives the public the idea that they can just abandon their unwanted cats or litters outside, and a TNR person will magically clean up after them.

Why spay your cat if you can just put the kittens out, and other people will supposedly care for them?

This is what I meant earlier when I wrote about denial

The attitude of "oh, all these other things are hurting birds, so its ok if cats do it"

******************************
Hunters kill birds and just about anything else that walks or crawls. Loggers cut down trees, destroying bird species to a point of near extinction world wide. Cats aren't the only creatures that kill for the fun of it. So do sports hunters. Do you remember egrets, pushed to a point of extinction for their feathers for women's hats about a century ago? High rise resorts along beaches cause the loss of global migration paths, their food sources and nesting locations and it's not going to get better for them as our own population doubles by 2050. I worry about birds too but not for the same reasons. I've read Audubon for at least 20 years but can't recall any studies or articles on cats vs birds with statistics, comparisons. The other thing is finding inexpensive ways to prevent cats from getting into the trees. Some people us bells.
************************

Just read something that makes me ask this question. The ASPCA is trying to define what "feral" is. I think that is a good question to ask this post.

That is my problem as well, what is "feral" because TNR is operating under the guise of this word. I don't think there are many truly feral cats in populated areas. I think this is a deceit term used to delay the guilt of those "caregivers" that gives them the excuse to take the easy way out and leave the cats outside.

*************************
Ferals -homeless, unsocialized, fearful and spits at humans, unable to touch or pick up.

Caregivers aren't the enemy. They're just people who don't want the cats to starve. That is the bottom line. Deceit Some of them do tame down in colonies. In 2 places where we trapped, local children had tamed many of the cats. It's difficult if not impossible to tell if a cat is truly feral. There are always some cats that tame quicker than others. Some only semi-tame. The ones that are hard to trap are the smart kitties. It doesn't mean the animal is feral or difficult to rehabilitate. Rather, it's a matter of trust on their part.

It seems that most rescue folks work in loosely run groups or individually at their own expense. To me, all the better known groups are well organized. I get the impression there's general agreement that TNR involves deceit, guise and guilt? I don't understand.
************************

Recently in Bloomsburg a man pleaded guilty to poisoning as many as seven of his neighbor’s cats with antifreeze.

In that case, Franklin Snyder, 27, says he got sick of the cats tearing up his property and garbage bags. He told a Columbia County judge on Tuesday that police and humane officers didn’t help him, so he took matters into his own hands.

*****************************
This guy should have covered his smelly trash can. He's inadvertantly attracting the cats to his property with a food source. A small dog with access to the yard usually helps too.
*****************************
He says the neighbor has more than 40 cats and that he considers them to be “just rodents.”

*****************************
It's against the law to poison animals. Another thing is that someone who poisons animals are possibly dangerous. Many serial killer started with animal killing.
*****************************

And when people talk about puppy mills, the breeders all chorus "oh, no one should be blaming breeders, it's other people's faults"

*****************************
Check out Dog World in the magazine includes AKC's quarterly and annual dog registrations and litters. AKC is the largest registry but not the only one. Breeding is big business. It feeds the pet supply manufacturers, suppliers and consumers which are extensive.
******************************

You are helping Kern County breeders keep on protecting the mills and hoarders from laws.

You are helping them maintain the delusion that everything can be made ok without laws.

It makes more sense to work for altering cats of irresponsible owners than making a place for their cats in a colony. The point we are trying to make here is that TN&Release only makes the problem worse. It gives these irresponsible people a way out and they take it.

*************************
Anonymous: Irresponsible people already have ways out when they don't want an animal around -> :rat poison, antifreeze, rent traps and take to shelter, dump them, just for starters. Poisoning and dumping are already against the law in California. There is no interest on the part of police or AC to respond to dog or cock fighting. A woman in Lake LA, near Palmdale has called all agencies about cock fighting in her neighborhood over 50 times without a single response to her request. Animals would benefit from legislation that protects them.

List of people that should not be allowed to have a dog or cat:
College students
Military personnel
Teenagers
Hispanic migrant workers
Viet Namese (eat them)
In general, Hispanics and blacks are the worst pet owners.

-Cowgirl
*************************

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, you give a good argument as to why cats should not be outside when you speak of all the other ways birds are killed. It is right to contribute to their killing by leaving cats outside? Do you not have any feelings for birds, losing their young to well fed cats for the fun of it? And I do not believe that you have never read the consequences of having cats outside depleting the bird population. There are numerous studies on this subject and they all point to the same thing, cats kill too many birds. Birds have a place in the ecosystem, cats do not. Cats are an invasive, non native species. Birds provide a service to mankind, distributing seeds, etc. Cats do not. So if one has to make a choice between a species that contributes to the planet and one that does nothing to contribute, which one would you chose? I chose the birds.

Why do you want all other people to spend their money preventing cats from whatever? This is your passion, not the rest of the world. Therefore you need to bring the cats in, not expect me or anyone else to tolerate or spend money to fix the damage done by cats. Where do you get off with this attitude? Why am I supposed to do all the work and spend the money to save these cats? It's your passion, you spend the money. You buy a cat enclosure and work with the cats. Don't leave them in my yard for me to do it.

"Ferals -homeless, unsocialized, fearful and spits at humans, unable to touch or pick up." Sorry, this is not a definition of "feral". It is a description of a domestic cat that has been abandoned. You made my point when you talked of children taming cats from a colony. In other words, you abandoned the cats a second time, no different from their owners abandoning them. Can you honestly see kittens growing up outside, being taken by hawks, eaten by coyotes, torn apart by dogs, really making it to adulthood in order to be "feral"? I mean, really, now. So your approach is to abandoned them all, feral or tame.

And yes, "caregivers" are the enemy. Because they exist, owners feel fine to turn their cats out, let the "crazy cat woman" take care of them. You say they are people who don't want cats to starve, yet they claim cats are wild and capable of taking care of themselves. Doesn't sound like it according to you. If there were no "crazy cat people" then owners would take the cats to the shelter where they might stand a chance of getting a new home or people wouldn't get them to begin with. With TNR the cats don't stand a chance at a new home at all, much worse than their chances at a shelter.

And you continue to make my points talking of how people solve the problems of too many cats. Do you want this? Don't you think about these things when you see the cats in a colony? When one doesn't show up, do you wonder what happened to them? TNR, out of sight, out of mind. So what that people are poisoning them? You gave them food and water and therefore you are not responsible. BUT you are responsible for their suffering. You trapped them and then abandoned them again to all of this. You have made my points. If you care what happens to these cats, you don't leave them to these devices. You take them in, you spend your money and time and stop expecting others to do it. It's your passion, not the rest of the world's passion. You save them, don't expect others to do it. Buy a cat enclosure, do the right thing by the cats. You are not their friend when you leave them in a colony.

And you want to talk law. Are you aware that you are breaking the law when you abandon the cat after altering? The police don't enforce the law like they should. One day they will because people will demand something be done. The police love dog fighting busts because they yield illegal drugs, illegal gambling, and sometimes prostitues. So I doubt seriously the story of the woman who called 50 times. At this point, you are the criminal, you are breaking the law. You ask for more laws, what good would that do if people like you insist on breaking them? You're not abiding by the law now, would you in the future with other laws?

I think you need to lick your calf over on this issue. You are in the wrong here.

Cowgirl said...

Honesty Helps: I don't disagree necessarily about cats being kept indoors. They live longer and are healthier.

That was my concept of feral you commented on. I mentioned too that it's impossible to tell at first what will happen down the road. Here's an observation. In 4 recent trappings, kids were involved with taming and naming cats being fed. They used words like needed to be fixed and understood exactly why. They knew the spots where cats hung out making trapping easier. 1) Trailer park, part hispanic girls; 2) Apts behind Mexican market, hispanic boy, 3) Rural Caliente, home, 2 caucasion fem. grandchildren; 4) Teh. City, home, hispanic, 2 girls, 1 boy). In 2 cases, 1 dad and 1 mom were imprisoned.

What would be beyond irresponsible is to put cats into or back into the wild to fend for themselves.

Actually, I love birds. We've had 2 blue and gold macaws, once since 1982 and the other flew down a few years later. Most of my stained glass windows that I made have birds in them-blue jays, honey eater, cukaroos (sp?), cockatiel and hummers. However, right or wrong I accept the predator/prey concept as a food chain. Cats eat birds, birds eat bugs... I know that mice have taurine in the brain, which is essential for a cat's health. There's lots of info. available.

Time to feed dogs. Cowgirl.

Cowgirl said...

"Death on a Factory Farm" is on HBO. It will be on HBO west coast at 10 pm.

Anonymous said...

"Must run. Placed one of my chow mixes yesterday. Blondie was so ready to be loved as an only dog..."

In other words, Blondie will rip another pet to pieces, and chew up the child that gets in the middle.

And it is cruel and dangerous to place a dog like that.



This rescue extremism hurts dogs and people.

Cowgirl said...

There is an article in National Geographic (January 2009) on endangered species entitled Last One , Essay by Verlyn Klinkenborg:
Sparrows of Merritt Island, extinct, cause DDT spraying for mossquitos.
Alabama beach mouse, dune habitat fragmented by construction and lit up at night.
California Condor, in 1989 just 9 wild birds remained. Captive breeding is bringing them back. Cause was lead ammunition.
Whooping crane with 538 left-387 wild, 151 captive.
Grizzlies, 1500 in lower 48 states.

There's actually a way to solve this - pet neighborhoods and no or limited size ones. That way everyone is happy.

I can appreciate people requiring a good night's sleep. Working people experience all sorts of stress throughout the day and need peace and quiet.

Honesty Helps said...

I agree with you Anon about the chow who wants to be the "only" dog. So this means that this dog cannot be taken for walks because it might meet other dogs. It means that you need a very secure fence so it can't get to the neighbor's dogs. God forbid if the cat jumped the fence.

BUT if this dog is so unsocialized and dogs see children as the same as another dog, then what will happen when it is around a child running around and being loud? Unfortunately we can't adopt dogs into a home that never has visitors or other animals, it doesn't exist. So when someone says it needs to be the only dog, it is just an accident waiting to happen. And in this case, a chow on top of that. I have experience with chows and this is a serious situation on this adoption. But this person will have to learn their lesson the hard way about chow adoptions and it will be at a cost to a person or an animal.

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, you mentioned in a previous comment that Hispanics should not own pets but you are depending on them to feed these cats you are releasing back. What gives here? You release cats to people you say shouldn't have pets and you release cats in a trailor park where the people can least afford to feed them. You are not making sense here, Cowgirl, with this. How can you justify doing this? I can do it for you, outta sight, outta mind. No regard for a quality of life is what your actions are showing. I am appalled.

Cowgirl said...

Anonymous. Perhaps I should have explained my comment about being an only pet. I was happy she would be smothered in love. The new owner is preparing for a marathon and the dog will go with her. She's a high school English teacher...and very enlightened. The dog isn't a bit mean. She'll be a wonderful companion animal.

Are you under the impression that chows are mean?

I'm not an extremist, we have different life experiences that creates a difference of opinion. I don't believe stray cats should be reduced to urban pests which unfortunately they become when free breeding is going on. Reducing the birth rate of ferals will make a difference. There are peer reviewed studies.

Here is a url with quotes regarding man/animal relationships: http://www.quotegarden.com/a-rights.html

Honesty Helps said...

The only time that it is noted that a dog needs to be the only dog in the household, is because there is a problem with it and other animals. Otherwise why would you say that? And yes, chows have problems, they are one owner dogs with very few exceptions. Chows have a reputation, well earned I might add, of attacking people and animals. I have a chow mix, 90 lbs worth, and I would euthanize him before placing him with anyone. He has a textbook chow attitude. I can't tell you the amount of time I spend to avoid this chow attitude but as he matured, it came out. Chows should be handled with the same care as pits when it comes to placement. You know this dog is aggressive or you would not have made that statement. You're not talking to a bunch of fools here, Cowgirl.

And as for your studies, they mean nothing because they are coming from people who support this, not from credible sources who have no interest in all of it other than to report the truth. It is actually the other way around and I suggest that you do some reading at www.TNRrealitycheck.com

Cats are being reduced to urban pests BECAUSE OF TNR. You don't force cats down people's throats and that is what this movement does. You can honestly say that these cats live a quality life???? No, they don't. And to want anything less than a quality life for an animal is unethical and immoral. The one thing I see in those who want to TNR is a lack of concern for suffering, like it doesn't exist for these cats. How can you go to bed at night knowing what these cats are facing outside? How can you sleep? I can't therefore I fight to stop the suffering and cruelty of this stupid, ignorant movement. If a person did what you are doing to these cats, they would be charged with abandonment and cruelty. You're not part of the solution, TNR is not part of the solution, both of you are the problem. Get your head out of your ass for a change and search for the truth. Don't be a fool and listen to other fools, find out for yourself like the rest of us on here. We learned the hard way and that meant cats had to suffer for our lessons. We want you to learn your lesson and stop with your cruelty.

Honesty Helps said...

5. The recommendation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for protection from toxoplasmosis is to avoid stray cats and kittens (http://www.cdc.gov/toxoplasmosis/pdfs/
ToxoCatOwners_8.2004.pdf).

Furthermore, the CDC recently announced that the results of a study show Toxocara (roundworm) infection to be more common than previously thought (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/
parasites/toxocara/
Toxocara_announcement.pdf).

Finally, the CDC recently announced that canine rabies has been eliminated in the U.S. through the implementation of dog vaccination, licensing and stray dog control (not by maintaining free-roaming feral dog colonies). Nationwide, cats accounted for 54 percent of domestic animals found with rabies in 2005. In 2006, cases of rabies in cats increased 18.2% compared with the number reported in 2005. Raccoons top the list, but cats are the leading carriers by far among domestic animals. In the Compendium of Animal Rabies Prevention and Control, 2008, the recommendation is that, "Stray dogs, cats and ferrets should be removed from the community".

NOTE: STRAY DOGS, CATS, AND FERRETS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE COMMUNITY. THIS IS THE CDC, AN ORGANIZATION RESPONSIBLE FOR PUBLIC HEALTH. They have no other reason for saying this other than a concern for the health of the public.

Cowgirl said...

OK. I checked out the CDC site, which, by the way is a great resource.

Url: http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/animals/cats.htm

If you look at the text box entitled Important Fact:
People are probably more likely to get toxoplasmosis from gardening or eating raw meat than from having a pet cat. Special tips are available for pregnant women.

With that said, I got ringworm once, and once is enough. 7 dogs and 2 of us were on medication for quite a while. It was from a long haired cat belonging to a hispanic family-very poor. Granny, 3 kids and mom a seamstress. It eventually goes away on it's own but it's really contagious in the meantime.

By the way, out here in horse country, horses are being abandoned, left in the desert and given away free. My neighbor has 2 of them he wants to give away. I just heard about another 6+ that someone in Inyokern can no longer care for. A bail of alfalfa is $16 and 1 horse (I think) goes through 1 a week. Plus they require grooming, teeth floated, farrier services, worming and daily cleanup. I used to take care of a friend's 6 horses when they were gone on weekends-coffee vendors. It's hard work.

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, there were several links I have provided that you need to read. And there are more posts since this one that you need to read. Why would you pull one statement from all this information that you think proves your point? By the way, ringworm does not just "go away" on it's own. Ringworm spreads without treatment.

And what do you suggest on the horses, a feral horse program?

Cowgirl said...

I joined the blog because there are many sides to TNR. However, there is way too much evidence that we're screwing thing up and need to quit managing animals.

1. Cat removal eco disaster. Absence of cats left rabbit population to devastate Macquarie Island's vegetation
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/12/eco.macquarieisland/index.html?iref=newssearch

Go to CNN.com
Search for "bird populations"
Click on "News"
The following articles can be found following this path.

1. Biologist: Birds competing for airspace with planes.

2. Report: Energy production choking bird population

3. Many bird populations in trouble, report says

4. Canada geese brought Flight 1549 down, NTSB says

It's my personal opinion, based on overwhelming evidence, that man, not cats, are responsible for the needless, slow, painful, cruel deaths of birds. Toxins, pesticides and loss of habitat are just a few of the stresses leading to bird declines. Try a copy of Audubon magazine for objective reporting on birds. Most of my opinions have been molded and aligned with theirs.

Update: Our local Human Society has sent out an email to all of their members to broadcast the need for homes for the 2 horses. TNR for the horse was a nice sharp collar correction!

Honesty Helps said...

So what are you saying, Cowgirl, that we just forget about cats and the damage they do? If that is so, then we need to forget about all the other things that destroy our ecosystems and let nature take it's course. If so, then we are looking at a world without birds. Considering the role of birds in our ecosystem for spreading seeds to replenish the earth, what is it again that cats do to replenish anything? The info is out there, but you are only looking for info that supports your opinion.

Cowgirl said...

So what are you saying, Cowgirl, that we just forget about cats and the damage they do? If that is so, then we need to forget about all the other things that destroy our ecosystems and let nature take it's course. If so, then we are looking at a world without birds. Considering the role of birds in our ecosystem for spreading seeds to replenish the earth, what is it again that cats do to replenish anything? The info is out there, but you are only looking for info that supports your opinion.

Wild birds carry a host of diseases like the Avian Influenza.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/outbreaks/current.htm

Pitting survival of cats vs birds is a dual edged sword. Each have their merits and downsides. Lot's of bad things happen to animals the name of management.

Cowgirl

Honesty Helps said...

Cowgirl, this is not just about the birds, it is about the cruelty of TNR towards cats. I prefer what birds do in replenishing the earth over what a non native species does, kill and kill and kill without regards. Cats are taking prey that is normally for hawks, coyotes, etc. even though they aren't hungry. They are damaging our earth, they are being abused with TNR, and what is so difficult to understand about that? Are you a cat owner, would you chose a colony life for your cat? NO, you would not so why condemn the others to this life?

Cowgirl said...

Steve, my other half did some research. The HSUS supports TNR for many of the reasons I do.
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/feral_cats/feral_cats_frequently_asked_questions.html#1_What_is_a_feral_cat

We took another load of ferals (25, 8 in heat, 2 pregnant) to be sterilized a few days ago. I didn't trap at all. The people that took them in, did the work themselves. One woman has already trapped 15 cats in the last month and they're still coming. When I was leaving one of the trapping sites I saw 2 cats jump a fence and were breeding in a yard when I reached them. When the male was "finished" he went across the street and down the next alley. Females in heat may be why cats get clobbered by vehicles. They have a secret life that I'm seeing them act out.

Cowgirl said...

Honesty. I know what cats can do. However, either/or isn't an answer either. It is not fair.

Question:
Do cats kill more birds and through loss of habitat (food sources, nesting areas, migratory paths), pesticides, conversion of native fauna to lawns, pollution, fumes?

Cowgirl said...

Honesty. One more thought. Excluding nocturnal birds, don't birds typically sleep from night till morning? City lights and constant noise probably alters normal sleep patterns for some birds.

My iguana requires a dark, quiet sleep to stay healthy, among other needs. He either sleeps under our bed, in my closet or in his dog house.

When I look to the south at night the city lights from local cities like Lancaster, Palmdale, Tehachapi are creating increased light pollution. By the way, a shopping center went in along the 14 fwy, Antelope Valley Freeway to serve Santa Clarita and the surrounding areas where a sea of homes and townhouse communities abound. The lights at this center are SO bright and illuminating that it alters the sky many miles away. It has to have negative effects on people, animals and plants requiring dark and quiet.

Laws are not effective in making pet owners responsible. In many places like Chicago, where I grew up, animal control has existed for at least 50 years. The pounds picked up strays, kittens, wildlife from homes where the animal was no longer wanted. Many died within moments of internment.

Today, they basically provide the same services nationwide. Nothing has changed. When we go after the real culprits-puppy mills, AKC, pet product companies, inaccurate portrayals and misinformation about animals by media, TV, misinformed parents (and society), faith based groups for not teaching respect and stewardship of our ecosystem. Instead man holds on to the old biblical writings about procreating. It leads one to believe its not ok to trash each other but it's ok to trash everything else. It really does need to stop...

I'm looking for an article in MSN.com (I thought) about common things that cause breast and other types of cancer like carcinogens in common products, pollution, fumes.

Must go feed. Mmm. Chicken, veggies, grains and vitamins tonight. Yum.

Cowgirl said...

Honesty. Check out this site. It's a report on environmental pollution and breast cancer.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/114261513/PDFSTART

The report grossed me out.

http://www.manataka.org/page1672.html

I notice that a fair percentage of my pets over the years have gotten tumors and cancer:
Current:
Dog - Wart-like cluster on leg removed 2 months ago.
Dog - Malignant tumor on back of tongue diagnosed 2 weeks ago.
Cat- ear tumor removed 2 years ago - has returned and surgery scheduled.
Cat - inoperable growths near back of throat.

Past:
Dog - cancer surgery in stomach. Died
Dog - cancer of upper jaw. Chemo & Radiation treatment. Died

On a very happy note I got a used pretty large wooden dog/goat house. It's better than trying to build one from scratch. It took a forklift and trailer and the folks even delivered it. $100-the price was right. It should come in handy.

Carcinogens:
Chemical Source/use
1,4-dioxane Detergents, shampoos, soaps
1,3-butadiene Common air pollutant; found in vehicle exhaust
Acrylamide Fried foods
Benzene Common air pollutant; found in vehicle exhaust
Perfluorooctanoic acid Used in manufacture of Teflon
Styrene Used in manufacture of plastics; found in carpets, adhesives, hobby supplies
Vinyl chloride Used almost exclusively by the plastics industry to make vinyl
1,1-dichloroethane Industrial solvent; and in some consumer products such as paint removers
Toluene diisocyanate Used in foam cushions, furnishings, bedding
Methylene chloride In furniture polish, fabric cleaners, wood sealants and many other products
PAHs Diesel and gasoline exhaust
PCBs Electrical transformers; banned but still in environment
Atrazine Widely used herbicide, particularly for corn